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Revision as of 04:49, 28 June 2024 editVeg Historian (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users54,019 edits →Subjective not objective← Previous edit Latest revision as of 23:59, 9 November 2024 edit undoTom.Reding (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Page movers, Template editors3,916,901 editsm blpo=yes + blp=no/null → blp=other; cleanupTag: AWB 
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== Concerns of bias in lede ==
== Death ==


I have scarcely ever seen a more nakedly biased piece of text on Misplaced Pages than the latter half of the very lede here. Kind of shocking this has been allowed to stay substantially unaltered so long. It seems one user is very passionately edit-guarding this page to one-sidedly desecrate the legacy of someone who died not even a year ago. Shameless on multiple counts.
With a heavy heart, we share the news of Dr. John McDougall’s passing. A visionary physician and author, beloved husband, father, grandfather, brother, mentor and friend, Dr. McDougall died peacefully at his home on Saturday, June 22nd, at the age of 77. ] (]) 17:57, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
:Died at 77 and was ill was a very long time. It's interesting because a lot of his followers were using this talk-page inappropriately claiming he was going to live to a very old age. We need good ] for his death date. I will look around. ] (]) 18:58, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
::Will this do? ] (]) 06:37, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
:::Plant-based News is a weak source, it is usually removed from Misplaced Pages but is probably acceptable to use for a death notice or obituary, it's probably worth waiting until they publish better sources on his death. That will probably happen in the next week. ] (]) 10:51, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
::“ It's interesting because a lot of his followers were using this talk-page inappropriately claiming he was going to live to a very old age.”
::Surely you must have links to this? ] (]) 08:42, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
:::It's in the archive of this talk-page somewhere if you click on the archives. I have discussed the topic many times with his followers over the years. I called it correctly about a year ago, I knew he was very unwell and wasn't going to make it to old age. Of course his die-hard followers are now all over the Reddit plant-based diet sub claiming he only died at 77 because he ate meat as a teenager. They always have an excuse. The fact that he ate some meat as a teenager has nothing to do with the fact he died at aged 77. It's about long-time lifestyle changes that impact longevity, not things you did briefly for a few years as a teenager. There is also the fact that there are many factors associated with longevity but online today all people want to talk about is diet. ] (]) 10:49, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
::::So… no link? ] (]) 16:29, 26 June 2024 (UTC)


I will certainly be diving into the research to provide a thorough, truly unbiased summation of this man's life work, at some point. These edits will be well-cited, will interpret the literature accurately, and will provide a comprehensive, concise, and totally impartial summary of McDougall's ideas and influence. That does not mean bias to the contrary; it means no bias. Do not edit war when I get around to that, thanks.
== Subjective not objective ==


⚫ ] (]) 22:20, 22 October 2024 (UTC)
It looks to me like whoever wrote the second paragraph is a staunch meat lover, and anti plant-based eating. I would like to see some edits, such as...
:Please ] and take care with how you proceed. Sanctions apply. --] (]) 23:00, 22 October 2024 (UTC)
::I am not impressed with the recent edits by . The user has added unreliable sources and is removing sourced material such as ''Wardlaw's Perspectives in Nutrition'' and giving no valid explanation. Their edits are marked as minor when these are not minor edits and no edit summaries given for their controversial removals. There is also a possibility of canvassing . ] (]) 22:39, 2 November 2024 (UTC)


== Use of the words 'fad diet' ==
It has been categorized by some as a low-fat fad diet. Other nutrition experts consider it to be an extremely healthy diet. The diet rejects all animal products as well as cooking oils, processed food, alcoholic beverages and caffeinated drinks. As with any low-fat high-fibre plant-based diet, it may lead to weight loss, lowering of cholesterol, and many other health benefits that have been proven by science. Some people who are accustomed to eating animal based products and high-fat, high-sugar or highly processed foods in general may find it a difficult diet to follow, and experience some physical discomfort until their body adjusts. ] (]) 22:30, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
:Not correct. He was wrong about pretty much everything and the science doesn't support his claims. We have multiple ] noting that his fad diet had no good evidence to support it. ] (]) 23:31, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
:Agreed. This is definitely a subjective article. I wish more effort was put into briefly explaining the tenants of the diet and less effort put into citing multiple criticisms. I'm neither for nor against this diet, but I don't care for the bias here. That is not why I sought out information on Dr. McDougall. ] (]) 00:02, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
⚫ ::Tenants? ] (]) 04:56, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
:Agreed, this is a completely subjective review- from fad diet to the entire last paragraph. There is significant empirical evidence that validates his work. Moreover, Misplaced Pages shouldn’t represent such bias. ] (]) 10:13, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
::{{tq|"There is significant empirical evidence that validates his work"}} ← citation needed! ] (]) 12:57, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
:::"There is significant empirical evidence that validates his work"...Here are five published studies that back John McDougall's 50+ years of treating and curing chronic disease. I could find many, many, more if necessary to help improve the accuracy of this page. ] (]) 18:41, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
::::Those are all unreliable primary sources, ] would be needed for such claims. ] (]) 18:51, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
:::::] States that ideal sources for biomedical material include reputable medical journals. ]is undisputedly reputable which accounts for 4/5 of these sources. The 5th is published on the American Heart Association’s website. All 5 are well within reliable source guidelines. ] (]) 19:11, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
::::::There is no clinical evidence that McDougall's diet (or any diet for that matter) has "cured" chronic diseases. The sources listed make no such claims so I doubt Annie354 has read any of them. Two of the sources Annie354 listed are about complete proteins and ]. How is this empirical evidence for curing chronic diseases? The other sources are short-term RCTs that do not mention any significant results, merely improvements in BMI. Again, no evidence any chronic disease has been cured on the McDougall diet. ] (]) 19:20, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
::::::See ] ] (]) 19:22, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
:::::::Curing chronic disease was not the matter in need of citing. The sources listed were in reference to: <q>"There is significant empirical evidence that validates his work"</q> ← citation needed! ] (]) 12:57, 26 June 2024 (UTC) ] (]) 02:51, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
::::::::You are moving goal posts and doubling down on your claim. You said there is 50+ years of evidence of McDougall curing chronic disease. You haven't cited a single reliable source for this claim. You now claim to have shown empirical evidence that validates his work but you haven't. You have cited some papers he co-wrote himself. Show us 4 or 5 meta-analyses or systematic review validating his work. There isn't any because his diet has no clinical evidence to support it. Citing his own papers is not evidence. Where is the independent replication? In a nutshell you have not provided any evidence. We have been at this since 2020. Every few months a new user comes to this talk-page and claims there is evidence for the McDougall diet but no reliable medical sources are ever given. Big talk, empty claims. ] (]) 04:49, 28 June 2024 (UTC)


I am a new editor and am learning. I promise to get better. I do have some suggestions for this page.
== Semi-protected edit request on 25 June 2024 ==
{{archive top|asked and answered. ] (]) 14:40, 26 June 2024 (UTC)}}
{{edit semi-protected|John A. McDougall|answered=yes}}
"It has been categorized as a low-fat fad diet. The diet rejects all animal products as well as cooking oils, processed food, alcoholic beverages and caffeinated drinks. As with any restrictive low-fat diet, it may lead to flatulence, possibly poor mineral absorption from excess fiber, and limited food choices that may lead to a feeling of deprivation."


A fad diet is <mark>a weight loss plan that claims to produce quick results without scientific evidence to support its claims</mark>.
1. Change "fad" to "starch-based".


McDougall's way of eating does not claim to produce quick results without scientific evidence. I would respectfully request the word 'fad' be removed. It feels as though the 'owner' of this page has a biased opinion of him.
2. Remove "processed food, alcoholic beverages and caffeinated drinks". End sentence after "cooking oils".


Also FYI he died in Portland Oregon.
3. Remove sentence "As with any restrictive low-fat diet , it may lead to flatulence, possibly poor mineral absorption from excess fiber, and limited food choices that may lead to a feeling of deprivation."
Replace above sentence with, "His dietary recommendations have been used to reverse and prevent chronic illnesses for over 50 years". ] (]) 22:40, 25 June 2024 (UTC)


Also, there are many things I would like to add such as his lifetime achievement award from the college of Lifestyle Medicine in 2018 and his participation in the USDA debate in 2000.
] '''Not done:''' please provide ] that support the change you want to be made.<!-- Template:ESp --> The text would appear to be supported by the cited sources. ] (]) 22:59, 25 June 2024 (UTC)


] (]) 22:52, 2 November 2024 (UTC)
:Where’s the source that it’s a fad diet?
:Re fad diet - This has already been debated at Misplaced Pages for many years, check the archives of this talk-page. Fad diet is the name of a diet that makes pseudoscientific and unsubstantiated health claims not supported by clinical evidence. It fits the McDougall diet according to multiple ] that we have on the topic. ] (]) 23:07, 2 November 2024 (UTC)
:also, it’s not appropriate to add “ As with any restrictive low-fat diet , it may lead to flatulence, possibly poor mineral absorption from excess fiber, and limited food choices that may lead to a feeling of deprivation” in a Misplaced Pages page. This isn’t a school of learning. Absolutely inappropriate. It needs removed. ] (]) 14:27, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
{{archive bottom}}

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Concerns of bias in lede

I have scarcely ever seen a more nakedly biased piece of text on Misplaced Pages than the latter half of the very lede here. Kind of shocking this has been allowed to stay substantially unaltered so long. It seems one user is very passionately edit-guarding this page to one-sidedly desecrate the legacy of someone who died not even a year ago. Shameless on multiple counts.

I will certainly be diving into the research to provide a thorough, truly unbiased summation of this man's life work, at some point. These edits will be well-cited, will interpret the literature accurately, and will provide a comprehensive, concise, and totally impartial summary of McDougall's ideas and influence. That does not mean bias to the contrary; it means no bias. Do not edit war when I get around to that, thanks.

KettleMettle (talk) 22:20, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

Please WP:FOC and take care with how you proceed. Sanctions apply. --Hipal (talk) 23:00, 22 October 2024 (UTC)
I am not impressed with the recent edits by Vondercrump. The user has added unreliable sources and is removing sourced material such as Wardlaw's Perspectives in Nutrition and giving no valid explanation. Their edits are marked as minor when these are not minor edits and no edit summaries given for their controversial removals. There is also a possibility of canvassing . Psychologist Guy (talk) 22:39, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Use of the words 'fad diet'

I am a new editor and am learning. I promise to get better. I do have some suggestions for this page.

A fad diet is a weight loss plan that claims to produce quick results without scientific evidence to support its claims.

McDougall's way of eating does not claim to produce quick results without scientific evidence. I would respectfully request the word 'fad' be removed. It feels as though the 'owner' of this page has a biased opinion of him.

Also FYI he died in Portland Oregon.

Also, there are many things I would like to add such as his lifetime achievement award from the college of Lifestyle Medicine in 2018 and his participation in the USDA debate in 2000.

Vondercrump (talk) 22:52, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Re fad diet - This has already been debated at Misplaced Pages for many years, check the archives of this talk-page. Fad diet is the name of a diet that makes pseudoscientific and unsubstantiated health claims not supported by clinical evidence. It fits the McDougall diet according to multiple WP:RS that we have on the topic. Psychologist Guy (talk) 23:07, 2 November 2024 (UTC)
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