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Conservatism

The claim is made in the lead, preceeded by the phrase "often described". We are then given only three sources, none of which are particularly reliable. 2A04:4A43:4AFE:D739:0:0:5160:3989 (talk) 00:08, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

I concur. Mark D Worthen PsyD (talk) 17:29, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

Well put. Lmagoutas (talk) 10:51, 29 March 2022 (UTC)

Jordan Peterson has explicitly stated that he's a conservative.

He almost exclusively works with conservative think tanks, organizations, and groups. From rightwing republican Peter Thiel , to Chris Rufo's (anti-CRT) Manhattan Institute , to his multiple PragerU videos , his talks at the Heritage Foundation , his association with Ben Shapiro, even visiting Hungarian conservative leader Viktor Orban, his biblical series, and various philosophies preaching traditional gender roles. To quote this biographical article :

“Orwell did a political-psychological analysis of the motivations of the intellectual, tweed-wearing middle-class socialist and concluded that people like that didn’t like the poor; they just hated the rich,” he says. “I thought, Aha! That’s it: it’s resentment.” Anyone who set out to change the world by first changing other people was suspicious.

I don't see an argument for him being anything other than a conservative. Is there any evidence to the contrary? I don't believe it's controversial to say Jordan Peterson is a conservative intellectual.

Here are multiple articles describing Jordan Peterson as a conservative: The Oxford Review of Books , Libertarianism.org , Toronto99.com , The Guardian , Vox , The Independent . 115.166.9.22 (talk) 06:44, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

It's not controversial. That one political camp thinks the word is second only to "child molester" as a label of shame, and the other thinks it's a badge of honor is somewhat amusing, but the application of the term is not controversial it being addressed in the second sentence of the lead is completely appropriate. Le Marteau (talk) 08:47, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

"second only to "child molester" as a label of shame" In Greece, child molester carries a less offensive connotation than conservative. Self-described conservatives want to restore the ideals of the 4th of August Regime and/or the Greek junta, including the use of torture on political prisoners and the exile of political dissidents to Gyaros. Our right-wingers prefer to self-describe as "liberals". Dimadick (talk) 10:56, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

Involvement in, and speaking engagements at various prestigious organizations and institutes.

Jordan Peterson has been involved with, and done speaking engagements at various prestigious global organizations. I was wondering what other editors have to say about including some of the more prominent or prestigious ones. Here for instance, is him speaking at the Trilateral Commission https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqJZeS1wDFc. He's also worked for the UN, the Manhattan Institute, the American Enterprise Institute, and Dennis Prager - but I noticed none of this work is currently presented on his page (despite his speeches at these organizations being publicly available). I think it's good information, which can be covered within the bounds of WP:BLP - what do other editors think? 210.185.122.149 (talk) 13:03, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

They're would have to be secondary sources covering them to show they are WP:DUE. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:08, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

In late 2021 Cambridge University did a U-turn and extended an invitation to him -he spoke at a number of meetings - details at https://www.spiked-online.com/2021/11/26/how-we-uncancelled-jordan-peterson/ CanterburyUK (talk) 14:48, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

and also written about here - https://unherd.com/thepost/jordan-peterson-heals-old-wounds-with-cambridge-return/ CanterburyUK (talk) 14:49, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

"university proctors attended Peterson’s lecture on 23 November to show support for freedom of speech." https://www.newstatesman.com/encounter/2021/12/why-do-students-still-want-jordan-peterson-to-tell-them-how-to-live

"... entered the debating ch"amber at the Cambridge Union to enthusiastic applause and whoops of admiration. ..."

"Questions were opened to the audience... Their interest in Peterson’s opinions approached reverence. When the microphone eventually came to them, some students began by thanking Peterson for the positive impact he’d had on their lives.

24th lecture:

"His entrance to the stage at the University of Cambridge on November 24th infused the packed hall with intense anticipation. The focused audience sat silently, watching the noted academic’s every move and hanging by his every word. It was a level of concentration and attention unlike any I have ever witnessed, and when he paused in contemplation, standing silent on the stage for a good few seconds, the audience froze. Not the faintest, remotest sound could be heard as they awaited Peterson’s highly anticipated Cambridge oratory."

"... The captivating talk that followed illustrated Peterson’s tour de force intellectual prowess and his ability to make us freshly examine the ordinary and the (seemingly) simple...

"... “Meaning,” concluded Peterson, is “the antidote to suffering.”

You Don’t See Objects and Infer Meaning, You See Meaning and Infer Objects CanterburyUK (talk) 15:02, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

https://www.lotuseaters.com/jordan-petersons-return-to-cambridge-is-a-huge-deal-07-12-21 CanterburyUK (talk) 15:02, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

the video of the 23rd lecture is on Youtube - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HgSnS-z4JU&t=0s CanterburyUK (talk) 15:09, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

22nd he spoke to Cauis College, Cambridge University

-- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Twc6T19tap4&t=0s CanterburyUK (talk) 15:05, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

Looks like mostly primary sources and blogs - the one reliable source (the New Statesman) is just an anecdotal account of a visit, nothing significant in that. -----Snowded 15:36, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

Agreed. He is a public speaker, so any specific examples specific speeches would need context from reliable independent sources. These sources are pretty flimsy. Grayfell (talk) 23:46, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

Conservatism sidebar

This is about the Conservatism sidebar in the Views section, inserted by LucasBitencourt on 21 January 2021, removed by Graham11 on 2 March 2022, re-inserted by Trakking on 5 March 2022, removed by Le Marteau on 5 March 2022, re-re-inserted by Trakking on 5 March 2022, re-re-removed by Springee on 5 March 2022, re-re-re-inserted by Trakking on 1 April 2022. (Probably I've missed some edits.) WP:SIDEBAR says that articles with this sort of sidebar should "be fairly tightly related". I don't see that that's the case, and I don't see that Trakking has consensus. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 17:57, 1 April 2022 (UTC)

The people who removed it, at least the second and third time, were thinking it was a new addition, which it wasn't: it had been incorporated in the article for well over a year. As for its relevance, prominent conservative Yoram Hazony, for example, called Peterson "the most significant conservative thinker to appear in the English-speaking world in a generation". I think it's safe to say Peterson qualifies for the list. Trakking (talk) 21:45, 1 April 2022 (UTC)

My rationale was Having the "Views" section begin with a "Conservatism" banner gives WP:UNDUE weight to one categorizaton and aspect of Peterson's work. and I am still of that opinion. Le Marteau (talk) 16:15, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

I agree with this rationale. The views section describes a variety of both Peterson's opinions and opinions about Peterson, some of which is about conservatism or cultural issues that Peterson would be understood to fall on the conservative side of, but I think the text of our article does not put him neatly into the "conservative" box (regardless of how true in reality you think it is that Peterson is obviously a conservative or etc). For contrast, Ted Cruz very obviously and cleanly fits into the "conservative" category: RS will almost always describe him that way where it is appropriate to mention his political affiliation, and his article describes him matter-of-factly as a conservative, so the banner on his page makes sense. For Jordan Peterson, reliable sources/our article seems a little bit more murky on Peterson's politics -- we don't feel confident enough to put him in the conservative box in Misplaced Pages's voice -- so the big banner to the right gives undue prominence to one aspect of/way to categorize his views. Endwise (talk) 06:43, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

Was the original inclusion ever discussed? I don't see that the side bar really fits in this article. Removal makes sense. Springee (talk) 15:11, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

I agree the side bar doesn't fit here in this article. Just because it was there for over a year doesn't mean it actually belongs. Masterhatch (talk) 18:13, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

If reliable sources consistently describe him as closely tied to the topic, he belongs in the 'series' sidebar. If not, no. If Yoram Hazony's opinion is supported by reliable sources (especially WP:IS) it could be included depending on due weight. Multiple changes along those lines would make the connection clear and meet WP:V, solving the issue.

Right now, however, the current content of the article doesn't seem to support this. It does support a connection, but I don't think the article supports special treatment. Template:Conservatism navbox (which already includes Peterson) seems like a better fit for now. Grayfell (talk) 23:26, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

• Thinking about it some more, here's another approach that might be helpful:

Do sources about conservatism commonly mention Peterson? Or is it mainly sources about Peterson which mention his ties to conservatism? If the former, it makes sense to include him in a narrow navbox for the topic, since it's just following sources. If it's the latter, inclusion is subjective and may be a subtle form of original research. Grayfell (talk) 06:05, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

I think the answer to the question Do sources about conservatism commonly mention Peterson? determines whether it would be reasonable to link to this article in the conservatism navbox, but I don't think it is the standard which would determine whether we should add the sidebar on this article -- Peterson's name can be in the template but the template not be displayed on this article. Endwise (talk) 06:47, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

It was in the conservatism navbox too, ScottishFinnishRadish removed it on 3 December 2021, Trakking re-inserted but then self-reverted. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 13:53, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

My bad, I was using "navbox" and "sidebar" interchangeably, but I see that it's incorrect to do so. Endwise (talk) 13:59, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

Every article linked to in a nav template should also display that template, per WP:BIDIRECTIONAL. If neither navbox is shown here, it should be removed from both navboxes. Grayfell (talk) 20:13, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

The article subject is not notable for conservatism and thus inclusion is undue. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 22:29, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

So we should not have it in then? Emir of Misplaced Pages (talk) 17:59, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

Jordan Peterson has explicitly stated that he's a conservative.

He almost exclusively works with conservative think tanks, organizations, and groups. From rightwing republican Peter Thiel , to Chris Rufo's (anti-CRT) Manhattan Institute , to his multiple PragerU videos , his talks at the Heritage Foundation , his association with Ben Shapiro, even visiting Hungarian conservative leader Viktor Orban, his biblical series, and various philosophies preaching traditional gender roles. To quote this biographical article :

“Orwell did a political-psychological analysis of the motivations of the intellectual, tweed-wearing middle-class socialist and concluded that people like that didn’t like the poor; they just hated the rich,” he says. “I thought, Aha! That’s it: it’s resentment.” Anyone who set out to change the world by first changing other people was suspicious.

I don't see an argument for him being anything other than a conservative. Is there any evidence to the contrary? I don't believe it's controversial to say Jordan Peterson is a conservative intellectual. 124.170.172.106 (talk) 06:26, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

There is a difference between someone being a conservative and being such an important part of conservativism that they need to be included in a navbox or siderbar. Emir of Misplaced Pages (talk) 18:12, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

Here are multiple articles describing Jordan Peterson as a conservative: The Oxford Review of Books , Libertarianism.org , Toronto99.com , The Guardian , Vox , The Independent . 124.170.172.106 (talk) 06:40, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

For general navigation templates, the question is not just "is he a conservative", but rather, "do sources support including him in a list of people who are known primarily for being conservative". In other words, do reliable sources define him as a conservative specifically? Is he merely a conservative mainly know for something else, like, I dunno, Gary Sinise? Or does he influence the topic of "conservatism" itself in some way? I think the answer is probably "yes". Sources suggest Peterson is defined as an important or semi-important figure in conservatism. From sources, it seems he is more important to conservatism than to the academic field of psychology, and I don't say that lightly.

The side bar, however, is also supposed to be even more narrow than other kinds of templates. So do sources define him as vital to understanding conservatism? I do not think sources support this, but there is room for debate and this is ultimately subjective and decided by editors here. Grayfell (talk) 06:51, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

sources appear to indicate he's a global warming denying christian conservative wingnut, so yeah, "conservative" sidebar seems warranted. Acousmana 07:39, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

It seems to me that Trakking + 124.170.172.106 + Acousmana support the sidebar, Le Marteau + Springee + Endwise + Peter Gulutzan + Masterhatch + Jtbobwaysf oppose, Grayfell is still thinking, some editors might want a navbox but I think that should be a different thread. Object if I appear to be misrepresenting or oversimplifying. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 14:08, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

With WP:!VOTE in mind, I oppose inclusion in the sidebar, but support inclusion in Template:Conservatism navbox, because I think this would be the most helpful to disinterested readers. The main purpose of these templates is as a convenience for people who are looking for information about conservatism itself as a topic. They are not designed for people who have already formed an opinion about Peterson, and they are certainly not intended to prove a point. It doesn't really matter precisely how conservative Jordon Peterson is, as an individual, on some arbitrary scale, nor does it matter whether or not he describes himself as conservative. What matters is how reliable sources, with a preference for WP:IS, describe him. Grayfell (talk) 23:51, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

Does this mean that you don't think "Conservatism navbox" should be a different thread? Peter Gulutzan (talk) 14:09, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

Well, per Template:Conservatism sidebar: This is the sidebar version of the Conservatism template. For the footer version, with more links, see Template:Conservatism navbox. Please ensure that it is kept updated with any content changes made here. If a new section helps with consensus, okay, sure, but its a closely related issue and consensus for one would effect consensus for the other.

Also, previously the sidebar template was explicitly limited to articles ranked as 'top-importance' by Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Conservatism. While no longer true, reviewing Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Conservatism/Assessment might be helpful for perspective. Grayfell (talk) 21:23, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

I reverted Trakking's latest re-insertion of the sidebar, and ask Trakking to seek consensus. As for adding a navbox i.e. a line at the bottom after "portal", as Trakking tried in December 2021 but self-reverted, I see that there is support for that by at least one editor in this thread. I have no opinion about it. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 14:08, 9 April 2022 (UTC)

I have removed the link from the template per WP:BIDIRECTIONAL. After looking over Misplaced Pages:WikiProject_Conservatism/Assessment#Overview, I no longer think the navbox is a worthwhile compromise either. Grayfell (talk) 19:07, 10 April 2022 (UTC)

more recent activities

The page IMHO perhaps lacks more recent events. I added some notes above abut his Cambridge University speaking engagements in Nov 2021.

Another interesting conversation - 2M people have watched him being interviewed by the UK high profile comedian: Russell Howard https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYM-sS-0-yg Howard is not a noteworthy name in psychology or academia of course. But the 15 minute chat is not trivial in content. — Preceding unsigned comment added by CanterburyUK (talk • contribs) 15:26, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

As mentioned at #Involvement in, and speaking engagements at various prestigious organizations and institutes. this will need reliable, independent sources to explain to readers why these numbers would be important. There is no agreed-upon point at which a number of views becomes encyclopedically significant. We need reliable sources to explain this for us, even if it might seem obvious to us as editors. Grayfell (talk) 23:55, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 25 April 2022

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In the Religion section:

Peterson says, “The ultimate mentor is Christ.” https://byfaith.org/2022/04/25/jordan-peterson-and-the-quest-for-a-mentor-in-the-post-truth-age/ Minion Life Kevin (talk) 10:15, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. You'll need reliable sources discussing this to show that it is WP:DUE. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 10:30, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

Each quote from Peterson includes the original source. Minion Life Kevin (talk) 10:27, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

Please do read WP:DUE... the issue is not whether or not he said such and such a thing... the issue is, whether the statements in question received coverage by reliable sources, and if so, how much? The more something is covered, the more weight it has. In this case, "byfaith.org" seems to be a non-notable blog of a non-notable book publisher, and that does not give much weight at all for inclusion in this article. Le Marteau (talk) 11:45, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

Your thoughts are important on the neutral point of view. I am suggesting the addition of one quote of seven words: Peterson says, “The ultimate mentor is Christ.” This is not controversial, we know Peterson said it, the source is correct. The page is certainly a religous publisher, who has studied and quoted the religous thoughts of Peterson. It's an important addition. Minion Life Kevin (talk) 06:01, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

It isn't up to us as editors to decide something is important. It is up to reliable, independent sources. Since Peterson has said countless things, and we cannot possibly include them all (even those which have been supported by publishing blogs) we need a specific reason, based on sources, to include this one. Without a well-sourced reason, the addition of this quote would be a form of editorializing, as its inclusion, and it's relative importance, would be based on your personal opinion as an editor. Grayfell (talk) 22:48, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

To phrase it another way, in case it helps with clarity. Peterson, as a philosopher, says many things. Some may argue he even says too many things, as philosophers are often wont to do. Some of those things are important, and some are not. How we determine whether a statement made by Peterson, or any biographical subject, is based upon what reliable secondary sources say about it. This is usually in the form of print media, academic research, or biographies. Ideally such sources will be transformative of Peterson's commentary in some manner, explaining why it is impactful for good or ill (the statement may or may not be controversial for example), as that would help us assess its due relevance.

At the moment, the only source provided is from a religious blog, owned and operated by two brothers who seem to be authors of little renown, relatively speaking. Leaving aside the reliability concerns of the source for now, while the statement is clearly important to one of them, we cannot from this source assess the importance of the statement relative to other statements Peterson has made. For that, we need more sources, demonstrating why it is important and impactful. Sideswipe9th (talk) 23:10, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

I appreciate everyone elaborating on my rather short reply. Y'all making me look bad! ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 23:25, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

Views

@Springee:, you reverted my edit to this section by saying that it does not describe his views, but there is already a quote from Current Affairs in the section describing how others view him, so how is that okay while my quote isn't? As for his connection to the film, he is featured in the film. X-Editor (talk) 20:28, 6 June 2022 (UTC)

X-Editor, no problem and thank you for opening the discussion topic. As for the view section, I think it's one thing to find sources that say, "based on his comments/actions we think his views are this...". It's another when the source just says, "people call him a Nazi". Nazi is one of those labels that gets thrown around a lot when someone wants to make it clear they don't like someone but I don't think in this case it tells us anything about his views. Is he a Nazi because he is a nationalist? Does he want to take over France? It's just not an insightful comment. I'm not sure that the Current Affairs quote is that useful either but it avoids saying he is labeled a Nazi. As for the movie, if we are going to have something that is similar to a see also, the link should be clear. He may have been interviewed in the film or footage of his statements may have been used but unless the film was by him or he had a major hand in it's production I'm not sure why it would be included. Springee (talk) 01:03, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

Good points. Thanks for explaining. The term Nazi is tossed around a lot, so it's better not to use it. X-Editor (talk) 04:14, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

Recent addition of quote about Elliot Page

Do we actually need to quote the tweet, even in part? Even without the name it is still misgendering Page. Per the final example in MOS:GENDERID, which ironically also involves Page, we could and I think should paraphrase it. Something like On June 29th, Peterson's Twitter account was suspended after misgendering and deadnaming transgender actor Elliot Page in a tweet which said that Page had his breasts removed by a criminal physician. Sideswipe9th (talk) 15:58, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

With this edit, I hope to have clarified that the reason to include the quote was to specify the manner of the misgendering (which I suspect would not be clear to all of our readers, but which is pointed out with "sic."). I am certainly open to other perspectives on this, but I think our readership in general benefits from the reminder that this is what misgendering is - the same argument does not apply to the deadname, for reasons that I think are obvious. Newimpartial (talk) 16:17, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

That's silly - there are various reasons to truncate or modify a quote, but censorship is not one of them; see WP:CENSOR. And if he was blocked from Twitter for saying something, readers deserve to know exactly what he said. Korny O'Near (talk) 01:39, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

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